In Marketing Smarts Live Show episode 58, titled "How Marketers Can Navigate a World Minus Cookies (What Does That Even Mean?)," host George B. Thomas and privacy expert Jodi Daniels delved into the complex and evolving world of internet cookies.

This episode offered a comprehensive exploration of the role of cookies in digital marketing and the implications of moving toward a cookieless future.

The Cookie Conundrum

Web cookies have long been a staple in digital marketing, enabling businesses to track user behavior, personalize experiences, and improve advertising effectiveness.

However, with growing privacy concerns and regulatory changes, the marketing landscape is shifting away from reliance on cookies.

This episode aimed to provide an understanding of those changes and how we might prepare for a future without online tracking cookies.

Some Key Points in the Conversation

Understanding Cookies: The show began with an overview of what cookies are and how they function. That basic knowledge is crucial for marketers' understanding of the impact of cookies' absence.

Impact on digital marketing: The discussion highlighted how cookies have shaped digital marketing and what their absence means for the industry, including challenges in tracking, personalization, and ad targeting.

Transitioning to a cookieless world: Jodi shared insights on how marketers can adapt. That involves exploring alternative tracking methods, focusing on first-party data, and employing new technologies that respect user privacy.

Wrap-up: Embracing Change and Innovation

This episode of the Marketing Smarts Live Show constitutes a critical guide for marketers who are facing the challenge of a cookieless world. It emphasized the need for innovation, adaptation, and a deeper focus on privacy-conscious marketing practices.

As the digital landscape continues to evolve, marketers must stay informed and agile, ready to embrace new strategies that align with changing consumer expectations and regulatory standards.

As you reflect on the insights from this episode, consider how your marketing can evolve in a cookieless world. Revisit the original podcast episode (link below) for a deeper understanding and explore the resources shared.

The future of digital marketing is not about clinging to old methods but about innovating and respecting the changing dynamics of privacy and user experience.

Watch the video for the full episode of the Live Show:

Make sure you don't miss any future episodes: Subscribe to the Marketing Smarts Live Show on YouTube. And to catch up on all previous episodes, check out the full playlist on YouTube.

Episode Details, Guest Information, and Referenced Links

Episode No. 58

Guest's social media profiles:

MarketingProfs resources referenced in the show:

"In B2B News" article referenced in the show:

"From the #mpb2b Community" links referenced in the show:

Transcript: How Marketers Can Navigate a World Minus Cookies, With Jodi Daniels

Hello to all my Marketing Smarts Live viewers today. I'm super excited to bring you Episode 58 of the Marketing Smarts Live show.

This week's topic is all about How Marketers Can Navigate a World Minus Cookies.

So, if you're ready to get your learn on, buckle up and let's get ready to rock and roll.

Hey, I'm your boy George B. Thomas, speaker, trainer, catalyst, and host of this here show, the Marketing Smarts Live show, as well as the Marketing Smarts podcast found on your favorite podcast app.

Our guest clips today are brought to you by none other than Jodi Daniels.

Jodi Daniels is the founder and CEO of Red Clover Advisors, a privacy consultancy bringing data privacy strategy and compliance together with a flexible and scalable approach.

Red Clover simplifies data privacy complexity; refines, updates, and builds privacy structure; and makes the business and legal issues accessible and actionable for all.

Jodi is a Certified Informational Privacy Professional who serves as the outsourced privacy office for companies.

Now, remember the clips of Jodi Daniels today are pulled from the full Marketing Smarts podcast episode, and if you want to listen to the full interview with Jodi Daniels and myself, make sure to tune into the Marketing Smarts podcast, link to the full show will be in the description below after the live show ends.

Now, in this episode, again, I'm talking with Jodi Daniels about How Marketers Can Navigate a World Minus Cookies.

In this first clip with Jodi, I wanted to get her to dive deeper into what we mean by a world minus cookies. Her thoughts on cookies, and what the future looks like and why.

Here's what she had to share!

Jodi: Let's define the cookie. There is a little piece of code that drops on a computer when you go to website ABC, and then there's a couple hundred or a couple thousand, depending on the size of the company, that might keep getting dropped as you continue on that website or a bunch of other websites. What that means is if I go to the shoe website and I don't buy shoes, I can now go browse the web, go to my favorite Social media platform, and they can serve me up an ad that tries to encourage me to buy those shoes.

There are also some other cookies along the way to analyze how effective the ad was. Maybe in the car space, I was looking at a blue car, but you really want to sell me a silver car, or you really want to make sure that I don't get a silver car, you really want me to have a blue car, or you want to make sure that I don't see five ads all the time. There's a variety of different kinds of cookies. Not all cookies are created equal and not all cookies are bad. The general essence of a cookie is some little tracking piece.

If I use this analogy, it often helps people understand the tracking piece a little bit more and as we start to build for trust. We talked about this digital cookie trail that is created when you're online. Imagine you're outside going for a walk, and someone is behind you with a little notepad. They note what you're wearing. They note how far it is from your house to the Starbucks. They note what you're getting at the Starbucks. They note what kind of car you drove. They note everything else that you're doing. You're going to go to this office, you're going to order this for lunch, go to this yoga gym, play these music stations, come home, open your fridge, have your smart TV watch your shows, and we could keep going.

After the first 30 seconds when you notice this person behind you with the little notebook, you probably would stop and say, "What are you doing? I don't want that tracking anymore." In my example, I followed you the entire day. That is what is happening in the land of cookies, we are following the trail all the time to be able to capture that data to build profiles. I'm a mom in Atlanta. Someone else is a younger demographic in Atlanta. Someone else likes sports. Someone else likes luxury cars. All different kinds of profiles are getting created left and right.

In a land minus cookies, I'm not going to be able to build those profiles reliant on somebody else to do that in the same way. In some places, I have to opt in for the tracking and the cookie. A few people might do that. A significant majority might not do that because they don't like the idea of the tracking, they don't want the person behind them writing everything down, even if it is an invisible piece of code doing it on a website, which is what I used to do. We're not going to talk about how long ago, because that's going to make me older, but it was before social media was doing it because they wanted our data.

In all seriousness, what we mean is we're not going to have that ability to track with a little piece of code unless the person opts in to do so. I'm not going to be able to have the same easy mechanisms. I'm going to have to rely on other tools and methodologies to be able to get us there.

Has your company been the creepy guy or gal following and tracking folks around the internet?

Are you prepared for a future without cookies?

Are you building trust or focused on building trust in the future?

Are you putting a plan in place?

Put the answer to that in the chat pane or let me know on Twitter using the hashtag #mpb2b and, of course, tag me using @georgebthomas.

We'll get back to Jodi Daniels and her thoughts on How Marketers Can Navigate a World Minus Cookies, But first, I have to ask...

Are you part of the MarketingProfs community? If not, become part of the MarketingProfs community by heading over to - That's

Now, it's time for one of my favorite sections...

In The B2B News - Where we talk about breaking B2B news or really important tips we find on the Google news tab related to you and your B2B business. This week, the title is...

CMOs say the end of third-party cookies is both a major challenge and a good thing, by Constantine von Hoffman.

The majority of CMOs say losing third-party cookies poses a major challenge but will be a positive development, according to a new survey.

Some 72% of CMOs say it will be difficult to handle the impending "cookie apocalypse," according to Relay42's report "Rethinking Digital Marketing in a Post-Cookie Era." However, 61% also say it will wind up being a good thing for business.

Why we care. If Google sticks to its schedule, it will end Chrome's ability to use third-party cookies in October of next year. This means inventing whole new ways to do digital marketing. Time is running out and the stakes couldn't be higher.

To read this article, check out the link below when the live show is over.

So let's return to Jodi Daniels and her Marketing Smarts podcast episode.

In this next clip, I wanted to know what B2B potholes or hurdles we might face.

So, I asked Jodi that exact questions. When it comes to a world without cookies, what are the potholes or hurdles we may face?

Here are her thoughts!

Jodi: That is a very unique question as well. You have lots of really great unique questions, George. I think in terms of potholes, it's thinking that any of the cool technologies that are being sold to you are going to solve all of it. Take your CMP flavor of the month, or a CRM on steroids, or the idea of a clean room. One of the other ideas that I wanted to bring up was a clean room, because we talked a lot about first-party data, and some of the other ways that companies can navigate in a cookieless era is going to be a clean room.

The technologies are only going to work as well as the data is here. If you have really good solid data that you can put into a clean room, or that you can use in a CDP, then those tools will be really beneficial. If you're hoping it's going to be magic with little fairy wands, then it's not going to be. I think people who don't do the homework, don't really understand the technology as well and what it can do for them, or don't understand how it can work and there is a privacy impact that they didn't appreciate.

For example, in a clean room, you want to make sure the data that you're sharing is in line with your own privacy notice and is in line with your own contracts that you have, or you could create a big privacy snafu. Then you get to the legal team, and they tell you, "No, you can't do this." So, you want to avoid those kinds of things and build them all upfront.

Those would be some of the big pitfalls that I see B2B people have.

Do you look at tech stack as a silver bullet?

That might be a pothole for you and your organization moving forward.

Do you have or even know what a clean room is?

Quick question: do you have a privacy notice?

Do those connect or tie into your contracts seamlessly?

Just a few things to think about as we move into a world minus cookies.

We will get back to Jodi Daniels in a few minutes, but first, it's time for some...

Dope B2B Learnings From The Vault of MarketingProfs Articles

That's right. It's time to dig into the treasure trove of valuable information and pull out two pieces of gold to help you be a better B2B marketer.

Article one this week is: How Creative Digital Experiences Will Save Us When Third-Party Cookies Crumble, by Jamie Gier.

The approaching end of third-party cookies is top-of-mind for marketers, many of whom are wondering how they can pivot toward getting more first-party data.

How brands will make the most of that first-party data will redefine online marketing. The effort begins with gaining not only the attention of customers but also their trust—their belief that your brand's content, products, and experience are worth a piece of their privacy.

Without the tracking cookies and targeted advertising that have become so common across the Internet over the years, marketers will be exploring alternative strategies for collecting data and connecting with customers.

One strategy will stand out: the creation of compelling digital experiences that encourage audiences to willingly share their data in return for the ability to engage with the content.

Article two this week is Chin up, Marketers: The Demise of Third-Party Cookies Isn't All Bad, by Wilson Raj.

A huge chunk of the ads you see online are driven by third-party cookies, which are part of a somewhat questionable ad tech infrastructure that tracks and trades on website visitor and identity data.

So, when Google announced in January that it will phase out Chrome's third-party cookie support in two years, there was angst among marketers who were concerned they'll no longer be able to track audiences and show relevant messages to them as they traverse the Web.

But, despite all the handwringing, for marketers there are long-term upsides and benefits to the demise of cookies.

Want to keep learning more? If so, check the links in the description below after the live show to get access to both amazing MarketingProfs articles.

OK, back to Jodi Daniels... Let's dive back into this conversation of How Marketers Can Navigate a World Minus Cookies

In this clip, I wanted to ask Jodi what success looks like.

Meaning, that when we shift and start living in a world without cookies, how do we know if we are knocking it out of the park or falling short?

Her answer is very helpful. Take a look.

Jodi: We've been talking about segments for years, the idea of segmenting your audience, account-based marketing, etcetera. Those are not new terms. Success, though, is where you get it right, and it goes back to the data.

If we start with how we got here, in a cookie universe, you could rely on your own data, but you didn't necessarily have to. There are some other new cookie tools coming out. There's server-to-server that will allow you to do things more on your side, so it will still allow for some of that targeting. But if I go with the idea of segmentation, the more data you have, the better your own CRM will be, the better you can leverage a CDP, the better you can use a clean room, the better you can use any of the new tools and technology that will be here.

That's where you get that conversion again. The companies I see that are successful have a clean data set. In other words, it's not messy with I have data in this database, and I have data over in that database, but they don't actually sync to each other. I've seen situations where they have preference centers, "Jodi wants option A and B," but it didn't sync properly to the other tools and systems. That's not really clean data, because when you as a marketer are relying on either of those systems, the data didn't go back and forth the way that it was supposed to.

Success actually kind of starts with a clean data environment. I don't mean to say clean data warehouse, but just getting all of your data in order is one of the first places. Then you can put on top of it all of the other cool tools, and then you can leverage all of the segments, doing so properly.

Are you segmenting your audience?

Is your segmentation right?

Are you using a CDP? Have you been looking into a set of new tools for this new world?

Is your data giving you what you need?

Heck, is your data clean and up to date?

We'll get some words of wisdom from Jodi Daniels here in a few minutes but right now, it's time to turn the spotlight on you, the MarketingProfs community. Yep, time for...

From The #MPB2B Community

We searched far and wide in the #MPB2B universe to find amazing information and conversation to bring to the masses.

So, first, make sure you are using the hashtag, and second, make sure you have fun and add value to the community.

Then, we'll spotlight you or your crew on the show. This week, it's...

Kelly Hungerford - @KDHungerford

"Can you find joy in B2B marketing and find joy in what you do? I think that's a very important emotion and experience when you do your job." —@PamDidner

#B2Bmarketing #MPB2B

But you need to check out the description and click that link to check out the post and read or learn more!

Marketing Smarts viewer, I have to ask... are you going to be next to get the spotlight?

Remember, community, use the hashtag #mpb2b on Facebook, LinkedIn, or Twitter and get the light shined on your awesomeness in the next episode or a future episode of the Marketing Smarts Live show!

Pro-tip, it won't hurt if you tag me in your post as well I'm @georgebthomas on LinkedIn and Twitter.

OK, let's kick it back to Jodi Daniels and some words of wisdom around this topic of How Marketers Can Navigate a World Minus Cookies.

Here is what Jodi Daniels wanted to leave us with...

Jodi: Today we're talking about cookieless. There are new tools that will come out, and then those tools will continue to change. We have AI that is going to continue to change the universe.

What I would offer is to understand your customer and put the customer first. Include other people, and really realize that the journey you're on is to help explain to your customers why they should be buying XYZ. Think about that relationship, and don't forget that it really is all about trust as the end goal of building a lifelong relationship with that customer or company, and to really ask for help.

New tools, AI, and understanding your customer, the world is changing folks.

Are you focused on the relationship and building trust?

Do you put your customers first, and do you understand them?

Are you taking time to educate them on why they should purchase from you? Trust in you?

Have you enjoyed today's journey? Let us know, use that hashtag #mpb2b on whatever platform you are joining us on.

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image of George B. Thomas

George B. Thomas is a marketer, video Jedi, and HubSpot certified trainer with 25+ years of sales and marketing experience. George is owner and HubSpot Helper at He has a record-breaking 38 HubSpot sales, marketing, service, CRM, and CMS certifications. George harnesses his expertise in graphic design, Web development, video editing, social media marketing, and inbound marketing to partner with, teach, and develop solutions for companies looking to develop their businesses and increase their revenue.

LinkedIn: George B. Thomas

Twitter: @GeorgeBThomas