It's time to champion the underdog, says Kellie Walenciak in Episode 572 of Marketing Smarts.

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"Unexpected paths can lead to the most breathtaking vistas. The unconventional, the outliers, what I've learned is they are the hidden gems of our industry," she says. "It's high time that we started embracing rather than pushing people away or discounting them, or buying into those stereotypes so strongly that we actually cause more harm."

It's easy to see where that refreshing take comes from: Kellie is the head of marketing and communications at Televerde, a company that provides incarcerated women with second chance opportunities.

"Every milestone in revenue also marks another step towards transforming another life and granting another deserving individual of that invaluable second chance that allows them to change their own lives, change the trajectory of their future, and also the lives of their families," Kellie explains.

She also speaks about how working for Televerde has helped find her own purpose, and why marketers are uniquely positioned to ensure that purpose extends beyond the walls of the business.

"I look at marketers, they're responsible for the care of this external brand, and they need to be equally concerned with the care of the brand internally. I really see marketing as being the key influencers in that and making sure that the brand is cared for internally and externally, that we're including, we're not excluding, that we're fostering that sense of belonging," she says.

Inspired yet? Us, too!

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Full Transcript: The Power of Second Chances in B2B Marketing

George B. Thomas: Today we get to sit down with Kellie Walenciak, and we are talking about the power of second chances in B2B marketing. I'm going to tell you, ladies and gentlemen, it is an absolute wonderful conversation that we're having today.

There are so many things that I would want to say about this conversation and about Kellie, but let me just tell you, maybe one of my favorite conversations thus far on the Marketing Smarts Podcast. We're going to dive into a conversation that is a little bit different than normal. I am going to ask questions around what keeps Kellie up at night around second chances, maybe even hurdles, and for sure some words of wisdom, but then there's also going to be deeper layers of this podcast episode.

Let me tell you just a little bit about Kellie Walenciak. Kellie is the head of marketing and communications at Televerde. In this role, Kellie is responsible for developing and executing a marketing strategy and brand image that sets Televerde apart while building long-lasting customer relationships. She oversees all internal and external digital marketing, brand messaging and management, content marketing, media relations and employee communications. Previously, Kellie spent 14 years at Avaya, where she last served as global head of employee engagement and executive communications partner to the CMO, head of HR, and general counsel.

I'm telling you right now, having built a career in communications that spans more than two decades, Kellie has developed a high tolerance for ambiguity, contradiction, and subtlety. She's a proven grammar stickler and wields a heavy red pen, two traits appreciated by her colleagues and underappreciated by her closest friends and family.

Kellie gives back to her community by volunteering for the Televerde Foundation in Pheonix, Arizona and Farm Sanctuary in Watkins Glen, New York. When she isn't working, you'll find Kellie spending time with her husband Matt and their three children, binge watching a Netflix true life crime series, hiking, playing tennis, and traveling. She also enjoys vegan cooking, weekends in Manhattan, and the occasional political debate. I'm going to tell you, there's no debate today in this interview on the power of second chances in B2B marketing.

Let's get into the good stuff. This one is going to get interesting. If you think about second chances in your life, or maybe second chances in your business, but we're talking about the power of second chances in B2B marketing and I am here with Kellie.

How are you doing today?

Kellie Walenciak: Good. How are you doing? Thank you so much for having me.

George: Absolutely. Trust me, it would be a very boring podcast if it was just me. Although, I will say I've been given a lot of second chances in life, and probably in business, but it would still be very boring. I always love getting experts like you on the show to ask them the questions that the listeners want to hear.

One of the things is we do like to have fun. There's a couple of questions in here that are specifically just to have a little bit of fun and see where they go, maybe the myths that you'll debunk, the words of wisdom that you'll give us. The first question that I love to ask is what keeps you up at night pertaining to the actual conversation that we're having. So, what keeps you up at night around the culture of second chances that can help businesses thrive? Is it a dream, a nightmare, let us know.

Kellie: It's a really good question. I think for me, and as you said, given our company at Televerde, the thing that keeps me awake at night is really trying to find that balance between growing revenue and upholding our mission. At Televerde, as you alluded to at the beginning, our ambition goes beyond generating profit. Our heartbeat and our core purpose is to provide incarcerated women with second chance opportunities.

These aren't words on paper. It's the driving force behind every decision that we make as a company. Yet to extend our model and to touch more lives and to bring about meaningful change on a larger scale, we have to grow our company, we're a for-profit company. I always say it's not growth for the sake of growth, it's about really making an indelible mark on society and reshaping individual futures and also the families of the women who we work with. For me as the head of marketing, cracking that code on revenue growth while staying true to our mission presents challenges, but the challenges invigorate us and lead to a lot of collaboration, a lot of research and back and forth. Always driving these discussions is the importance of our purpose.

Every dollar we generate, every partnership we forge, it's not a transaction, it's a testament not only of our commitment to changing lives, but also a commitment of our customers to changing lives. While the road ahead is filled with obstacles, our resolve to merge profitability with purpose is consistent because every milestone in revenue also marks another step towards transforming another life and granting another deserving individual of that invaluable second chance that allows them to change their own lives, change the trajectory of their future, and also the lives of their families.

George: My goodness. Marketing Smarts listeners, I hope you heard all of the good words in that section. The idea of profitability with passion, the fact that you mentioned mission and purpose, the fact that it was around transformative of the customers that you're serving. I'm going to be honest, that was just the first question, and it might be the rewind point. I hope you had your notepad ready, because many of those things that Kellie was talking about, if you're focusing in on your business with those mindsets. I'm super excited and I'm getting more excited. I feel like I'm going to get more excited with every question that I ask. Let's keep moving forward.

When we say the culture of second chances can help businesses thrive, I'd love to level-set because I might say something and think this and somebody hears it and they think something clear back in the back 40, way different than I was meaning. So, I want to level-set. When we say this culture of second chances, what the heck do we even mean?

Kellie: I've been in corporate America now almost 25 years. We use a lot of buzzwords, what's trending, catchphrases, and all of that. That's not what this is. This is more philosophy. It's a deeply rooted philosophy that really reshapes the foundations of business and society. What do we truly mean when we say this culture of second chances?

I think I would say it's a deliberate choice that is made by organizations to look beyond the conventional criteria that we use in selecting candidates and recognize the inherent value of individuals, especially those who come from marginalized or previously overlooked backgrounds, of which the incarcerated community is one. These are individuals who, for one reason or another, they may have faced setbacks or detours in their journey. It's about granting them another shot, really another chance to demonstrate their potential, their value, and their commitment.

I want to point out that one of the things that I've learned, I've been with Televerde now five years, is that the women that we work with, by and large, the overwhelming majority have never really been properly invested in. They didn't come up the way that I did, and probably the way that you did, so there wasn't a lot of the investments made in the communities where they lived, the educational sector, family struggles. When you don't have that opportunity and support, it does lead to bad decisions, quite frankly. These are decisions made to survive.

That's what we mean when we talk about second chances and who we're helping. The next question would be why is this important for business, why should business care? Well, the philosophy doesn't just serve a societal or a moral good, it's a strategic advantage. I believe when we embrace a culture of second chances, businesses are unlocking a treasure trove of talent.

Having faced and overcome challenges, this talent pool comes equipped with a unique blend of resilience, fresh perspectives, and unparalleled dedication to their roles. They've experienced the taste of missed opportunities, and when you give them another shot, they're more likely to be fiercely loyal and driven to contribute. I will tell you that The Society of Human Resources Management has done a study on that in partnership with The Charles Koch Institute, and there is actually data supporting this. I can make that available to you for your listeners.

In cultivating such a culture, businesses actually foster an ecosystem of inclusion and diversity, and it becomes an environment where everyone, irrespective of their past, feels valued and included. This leads to higher levels of engagement. I think the more you include and the less that you exclude, it is a morale booster, and people feel like, "Wow, my company is really committed to lifting up everyone, not just some people, not just people that look like me, not just people that came from my background, but everyone." People tend to stay at companies longer, they reduce that turnover cost, and it's also a morale booster.

So, I would say by championing this culture of second chances, businesses aren't just being altruistic, they're strategically positioning themselves for greater growth, innovation, and long-term success. It's really a win-win where businesses thrive and society progresses.

George: I love this so much. I think it's because partly I'm connecting with it. There was a time in my life where I literally said these words, "I'm not looking for a handout, I'm looking for a hand up." When I got that hand up, oh, dedicated, fall on the sword, carry the shield, let's go, you're my ride or die. There's something fundamentally psychologically that happens when you come from the places that you're talking about. I love this so much as far as why businesses can lean into it and harness it. So many of the words that you're saying are just ways that, I understand we're on a B2B business podcast, but fundamentally they're just words that you could live by and also do business by.

My hopes of bridging the gap of not understanding versus understanding is somebody who is listening to this and they're leaning into, "I never had thought about that, but I'm willing to try that thing." Are there some essential elements? I'm going to say for B2B marketers because I know this is a show for B2B marketers, but I'm going to put a caveat to marketers listening that this might be an episode that you want to share with your boss, share with the C-suite, it might be relevant to where they're at and what they're thinking about, too.

What are some essential elements that marketers and business owners should be focused on when exploring this new approach or strategy to second chances and types of humans that we're talking about here?

Kellie: I look at marketers, they're responsible for the care of this external brand, and they need to be equally concerned with the care of the brand internally. I often find in businesses that there is a disconnect between that. In fact, most times employee engagement, internal communications, it doesn't even sit in marketing. Most times you'd probably find it more in HR. That's largely because a lot of the content that needs to be created in terms of benefits packages and compensation changes and all of that generally comes out of HR. It becomes more of a focus on communicating with employees about things that are necessary instead of focusing on that engagement.

I think marketing is in a unique position to influence these other groups in the company to understand why this more inclusive approach to hiring and fostering that sense of belonging is so important. It's important externally, it's important internally, and you need to be doing both simultaneously. You can't present a brand externally and have a different brand internally. You can't be talking about inclusion externally in all of your literature and all of your content showing your company in a way of what the world looks like and what we aspire to look like and to be like and then having something opposite internally. You need to walk the talk in both of those areas.

That's why I would say that rather than have it driven by the C-suite, or by HR, or by law of corporate social responsibility, I really see marketing as being the key influencers in that and making sure that the brand is cared for internally and externally, that we're including, we're not excluding, that we're fostering that sense of belonging, and that it's a company that your employees can be proud of and they see that adherence to the values that are so important to creating a culture of purpose and a culture of passion that's necessary today for businesses to thrive.

George: I don't know about you, Marketing Smarts listeners, but I feel like Kellie came equipped with two-by-four moments of life principles. It's like bam, let me hit them on the head with this one. When you said walk the talk and the idea of this deeper level of marketing departments, HR departments, companies in general, cultural, all of this is amazing. I'm loving this conversation.

I will use the word fear in this one. My fear is that people have a predefined notion of what second chances are or what that means in the conversation that we're having. One of the things that I love to do is debunk myths. Mythbusters might be one of my favorite shows. What is a common myth about the culture of second chances, about second chances in general, about the things that we've been talking about today that you're like, I know there's some jerk in the back row that's thinking this thing right now, what do you want to debunk on the Marketing Smarts Podcast around this topic?

Kellie: What I would start out by saying is I was probably one of those jerks at one time. I think we grow up with a societal narrative around second chances, and this narrative is reinforced by the media, it's reinforced by Hollywood. I thought prisons were like Orange Is the New Black, if people were there, they were supposed to be there. It was based on the fear of the people in there, that they were irredeemable, they weren't worth anything, they were just the worst that society had to offer. Then I think when you look behind the curtain and you see the people who are in there, they aren't unlike you or me.

As a matter of fact, many of their crimes are crimes that many people we know have committed but just didn't have the same outcome. For example, maybe driving under the influence or texting and driving, people do it every day, and then for one person it leads to a terrible outcome and then outcome comes with a prison sentence. When you go in there and you're meeting with these people, and we work with women, I see women that are just like I am. They're moms. They're daughters. They're wives. They have hopes and they have dreams. They're just looking for a chance, a chance to be better than that worst decision or that worst mistake that they made.

What I would say is in conversations with people and talking about second chances, I think that there is this lingering notion that by offering second chances it's almost synonymous with settling or compromising on talent and standards. Again, that's because of that societal narrative. Many believe that giving someone a second chance we're somehow diluting the quality of our workforce or not maintaining the high bars that we set.

I'm going to set the record straight right now. Extending a second chance doesn't mean that we accept less talent or potential. It's in fact the complete opposite. Those who have been given a second chance, perhaps after a misstep or a detour in their personal or professional lives, often return to the fold with an unmatched dedication and loyalty. They understand the value of the opportunity presented to them and they are hungry to prove themselves.

I can't remember if we're connected on LinkedIn, but I just posted something this week about working at Televerde, and I said it's the only company in my career where I feel like an underachiever. That's true, because these women, especially as you start to get further into your career, we're always running into not wanting to relearn or not wanting to reskill, why do I have to learn this technology, I don't want to be bothered with AI, and for these women it's, "Just show me, I'll get it done." They consume knowledge and they're committed to your business.

The other thing is they bring this rich tapestry of experience and resilience that have been shaped by their unique journeys, so they have perspectives shaped by a mix of setbacks and triumphs, and they become catalysts for innovation and fresh thinking in a corporate setting. Imagine the kind of problem solving and creativity that stems from somebody who has navigated life's ups and downs and emerged stronger from them.

Instead of viewing the culture of second chances as a compromise, I think we need to see it as it truly is, an opportunity. It's an opportunity for us to tap into this reservoir of potential, drive, and diversity that can really push the boundaries of what our businesses can achieve. In today's age where innovation and adaptability are paramount, can we really afford to overlook such a valuable talent pool? I would say absolutely not. It's bad business if we do.

George: I love what you're throwing down so much right now. I wish this was a video podcast. It's an audio podcast, so people can't see the facial expressions, the mannerisms, me leaning back, me putting my hands on my head. But this might be one of my favorite episodes that I have done on this show. Sally Hogshead was a really great episode about different is better than better, but fundamentally the conversation that we're having today is so important to the layer past the tactics and the strategies, it's so good.

Speaking of tactics and strategies, this is usually where I make a funny about how I'm going to throw all the words at you for what are the tips, tricks, hacks, formulas. I don't want to go in that direction. I actually want to go off the beaten path for a second. You said something at the beginning of that, and it punched me in the face, "I might have been one of those jerks."

The question that I want to ask, because I think that the gap I want to bridge is how do I get people from being there to here, when you think about this journey that you've been on and the mindset of, I always call it a software update, I gave my brain a software update, what did you have to update in yourself or what did Televerde the company help you upgrade in yourself that got you to the point where we're able to have this conversation today versus being that person in the back row, arms folded, shut down, like I don't want to hear this? Talk me through that a little bit.

Kellie: It's a good question. I came to know about Televerde when I worked for Avaya, and I was at a place in my career that I had been there 14 years. When I started it was a public company, it was a private company, we went into Chapter 11. Most of the time I was in HR at that point, so I saw a lot. I started to become a little jaded about what corporate America was about.

I just didn't see a lot of purpose. I knew I had kind of this talent to write and contribute, and I didn't feel as though my talents were being used at that point. It seemed very mechanical, to be honest with you. I could write, so I would sit down and write, and I wrote it well, but I didn't really believe in a lot of what I was writing. I did struggle with that, and I struggled with it for a few years, having conversations with my husband about, "What am I doing here?" But you do sometimes get caught up in other things. I had three young kids, college in the future, and you kind of think the only way I could have something like this is in nonprofit, and that didn't seem like the right time to make a switch into that with where we were in our lives.

While I was at Avaya, we had a CMO who was really focused on building up our sales funnel. She put out an RFP, and Televerde was one of the companies that submitted a proposal. She had actually gone out there and met with the CEO at the time and came back. She was British, slightly different than us culturally. Where we tend to wear our heart on our sleeves, not really so with a lot of British people. When she came back, she was visibly moved, so I knew she had experienced something that was really dramatic, to be honest with you. I said, "I want to tell you about what I experienced and I need you to write a blog talking nothing about our company, but really focusing on what this company is doing to help elevate these women."

When I heard her experience and about what these women were learning, what they were capable of learning, how they were contributing, and even the thank you cards they had sent to her that were all so artistic and really a lot of thought in them and the amount of gratitude they had, I was just blown away. She had said, I'll never forget this, "If our salespeople knew our products the way these women did, we would have revenue growth quarter after quarter." That was extraordinary. That's when Televerde first burst on my radar. But they were a Phoenix-based company. I kind of kept tabs on them through social media. It was my CMO who became the CEO of Televerde when the other CEO retired, and I went with her.

What I'm telling you about all of this is that I think I was ready for a shift in narrative. I was really open to it and I wanted to learn more about it. Then actually physically being able to go there, sit in a room and meet with these women and hear their journeys, I call it a journey, a transformation. They don't dive too much into their past, but they give it to you kind of at a high level that's still brutally honest and just overwhelming emotionally.

I always said if my mother didn't wake me up for school in the morning, I wouldn't have made it there. That's how involved my parents were in my upbringing. Then I see what all of these women have been through, the overwhelming majority of them, and that lack of support for a host of reasons, sometimes it creates patterns of drug use and alcohol use, and all of that. To see that they're still here and fighting for their second chance, it's incredibly moving, it's inspiring, and it's motivating.

There's no one who has ever left that center where we take customers or prospects or job candidates, there is no one who ever leaves visiting those women who doesn't say, "I feel as though my life is completely changed." It is, it's a life-changing experience, but it's also a mind-changing experience because you will never look at incarceration in the same way again because they have this experience. We can't bring the whole world into the prison, it's just not possible, but what we've done at Televerde is this past August we rolled out a virtual Televerde roundtable which lives on our website.

There are 15 stories up there now where you can click on a story and you can listen to the woman talk about her journey through the prison system, how their lives have changed because of the second chance opportunity, and what their future looks like now in their mind. You'll also see some of our graduates of the program who have been out of jail, who have been out of prison for 5 and 10 years. I'm talking breaking cycles of incarceration that for some women have lasted 26 years. Tina Stein, who manages our largest customer account, cycling in and out of corrections for 26 years and because of this opportunity, it was what she needed to change her life, and she has been working with us now for a decade at our corporate headquarters.

When you're around that type of talent, that type of grit, and that type of determination, it's everything. It's a job you can't wait to get to in the morning. It's a job that you don't care what time you shove off at night. It's like, "I have to get something done," because you just constantly want to move the needle to continue providing those opportunities, because right now it's based on the growth of our company, which is why I said at the beginning that cracking the code on that revenue growth keeps me awake at night. I recognize that it's not about a bonus for me or hitting these numbers where people get rich or anything like that. It's about growth so that more women can be touched, their lives can be empowered, and they can reclaim their independence and reenter society as community leaders and business professionals and loving mothers, and just all of that.

I never thought I would describe work as beautiful, but that's what it is here. It's an amazing experience.

George: So good. I love grit and determination. So many pieces of this that I feel like the listeners should rewind and just let it soak in again. That section was just filled with fantastic words, and the way that you gave us a window into your personal journey of this along the way and things that were changing.

I want to dive into maybe the organizational side of this for a second. I feel like people are going to listen to this and be motivated to make a change, motivated for second chances. What are the common hurdles or pitfalls? You mentioned journey and detour, I figured I might as well stick with the hurdles if we're going down a road. What's going to get in the way at an organizational level of people actually embracing this?

Kellie: It's hard to change hearts and minds on paper. What usually happens is you find somebody who hears about our company, is completely taken with the model, and thinks this is a great idea, and then they take it back to their company. But there's a lot of people who are involved in those types of decisions, bringing a new partner onboard, you have procurement, HR, law, the C-suite.

When you're dealing with a workforce like ours that is mostly incarcerated, there is this thinking, again, that you're higher risk because of your criminal background. It's not true. As I said, SHRM and Charles Koch Institute has a lot of really good data on this, and they're getting people back to a toolkit. But it's hard to change on paper. Your general counsel is kind of reviewing a contract and their job is to protect the business from risk, and people with a criminal background are seen as a higher risk. It's difficult, it's a challenge.

The other challenge that we have, I call it the dual stigma of what we face, the stigma of incarceration, which we just talked about, but also the stigma of a for-profit company using prison labor. I think right away the feeling is icky, because most of the stories you hear about for-profit companies and prison labor are bad, the people are being used, they're not being paid properly, and all of that. That's not how we're investing in these women. We even have a nonprofit working with us to provide additional safety nets for when our women get out of prison, when they reenter society, that includes career readiness and job placement programs. We're helping them get housing and providing them with financial literacy training.

Our investment in these women doesn't end when they stop working for us. I should say many of them do go on to work for our corporate headquarters. Given the number of women that work for us in the prison facilities where we are, we can't hire them all, so we're always invested in them. We are invested in them for the rest of their lives. Whatever they need, we're there to support them.

I think from a company perspective evaluating this, there is also this thinking that because of the prison labor, they don't want to hear from their stakeholders, they don't want to have to try to explain this company is doing right by the prison that they're using. Some companies just say, "We're not going to work with a company that uses prison labor," and there are a lot of them that feel that way.

What we keep trying to do with both stigmas is just keep educating the business community on the talent within this community, and that there are companies exploiting prison labor and that there are companies doing right by prison labor. What we need are more companies doing right by prison labor, because I don't believe you can fix this mass incarceration problem and reverse recidivism unless you have for-profit companies, nonprofits, states, DOCs, all working together to try to solve this problem.

It's going to take all of them because you need the for-profit companies onboard to help train, to help invest, to recruit, to hire, to compensate, all of that. You need the nonprofit companies to continue with the upscaling, the personal and professional development, and helping them resolve the issues that led them to prison. You need that aspect, and then of course you need to have the DOC, correctional industries, and all of these states coming together and working together. That is how you chip away and eventually solve this mass incarceration problem that is plaguing us – and it is plaguing us.

I'll tell you, for us, we've had well over 3,500 women graduate our program so far since 1994, which is when we first opened our doors. Nationally, the recidivism rate for three years is about 65%, which means 65% of people released from prison will return to prison within three years. When you look at the five year rate, you're going as high as 89%. At Televerde, of the women who graduated our program, our recidivism rate is 5.4%. That's significant.

These women are graduating, that's what we call it, they graduate our prison program, they have the full support of the Televerde Foundation helping them get jobs in our workforce, and they're able to climb the career ladder and progress in their careers in meaningful work in careers that pay really good money so they can support themselves and they can support their families. They become the breadwinners, which is important.

George: This has been an amazing podcast. I feel like I could have just ended it there, to be honest with you, but I'm going to be selfish because I'm going to ask one more question. Kellie, we've all been on this journey, we all learn things. I'm super curious around this conversation that we're having today, what are the words of wisdom? What are Kellie's words of wisdom that you want to leave the Marketing Smarts listeners? It could be around this conversation or it could be just life in general, but what do you want to leave us with?

Kellie: I would say it's time to champion the underdog, honestly. Unexpected paths can lead to the most breathtaking vistas. The unconventional, the outliers, what I've learned is they are the hidden gems of our industry. I just think it's high time that we started embracing rather than pushing people away or discounting them, or buying into those stereotypes so strongly that we actually cause more harm. Recidivism doesn't just affect the individual, it affects the children, and most of these women have children.

That's what I would say. Get behind the underdog and root for them. As you said earlier about not wanting a handout, giving them a hand up. That's what we need to do. We need to start uplifting people, stop putting people down. Just really have this kind, compassionate, and empathetic way of doing business. There's a ripple effect to that because when we do that, it helps these individuals and their families, it helps our business, but it also cleans up our communities, it strengthens our economy, it opens up more regions of the world for companies to do business in. There's just nothing but wins to come out of that.

That is what I would say, champion the underdog.

George: Marketing Smarts listeners, did you take lots of notes? I have to ask, what is your one thing, your number one execution opportunity after this podcast episode? Make sure you reach out and let us know in my inbox or on Twitter using the hashtag #MPB2B.

I also have to ask are you a free member of the MarketingProfs community yet? If not, head over to You won't regret the additional B2B marketing education that you'll be adding to your life.

We'd like it if you could leave us a rating or review on your favorite podcast app, but we'd love it if you would share this episode with a coworker or friend. Until we meet in the next episode of the Marketing Smarts Podcast where we talk with Kyle Roof about unraveling SEO secrets for you the B2B marketer, I hope you do just a couple of things. One, reach out and let us know what conversation you'd like to listen in on next. Two, focus on getting 1% better at your craft each and every day. Finally, remember to be a happy, helpful, humble B2B marketing human. We'll see you in the next episode of the Marketing Smarts Podcast.

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